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	<title>Comments on: TelecomGate: City Up In Arms Over Loan Controversy With Municipally Owned Burlington Telecom</title>
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	<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/</link>
	<description>Promoting Better Broadband, Fighting Data Caps, Usage-Based Billing, &#38; Other Internet Overcharging Schemes</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7207</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7207</guid>
		<description>Morgan, I think you are right in that Comcast is not so horribly bad that more than 20% of the citizens will go running to BT for that reason.  However, I don&#039;t think BT was so naive as you suggest - especially as city leaders had been working on a cable/broadband system for a longtime before BT began.  And I haven&#039;t only received information from people who love BT - I&#039;m fortunate to have some contacts among those who care little about who provides their telecom.  

I think you have to be careful about claiming $10K cost per subscriber - taking the raw money spent and dividing it up among the users ignores many network realities.  The cost of the head end and such should not be included in that per user cost.  Nor should the more expensive connections for institutions and businesses that are taking much higher-cost services than residential users.

As for your $3500, I assume that is using the money lent from the City pool.  This is not an accurate way of accounting - the city is earning interest on the money it loaned to BT, which means that unless the city were to just walk away from the network (and extremely unlikely prospect), the taxpayers will be getting a return on that money in the pool greater than if it were just sitting unused in the pool.  So the idea that this money has come from the taxpayers is somewhat off - especially as this pool sees net income from Burlington electric and presumably other city-run enterprises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morgan, I think you are right in that Comcast is not so horribly bad that more than 20% of the citizens will go running to BT for that reason.  However, I don&#8217;t think BT was so naive as you suggest &#8211; especially as city leaders had been working on a cable/broadband system for a longtime before BT began.  And I haven&#8217;t only received information from people who love BT &#8211; I&#8217;m fortunate to have some contacts among those who care little about who provides their telecom.  </p>
<p>I think you have to be careful about claiming $10K cost per subscriber &#8211; taking the raw money spent and dividing it up among the users ignores many network realities.  The cost of the head end and such should not be included in that per user cost.  Nor should the more expensive connections for institutions and businesses that are taking much higher-cost services than residential users.</p>
<p>As for your $3500, I assume that is using the money lent from the City pool.  This is not an accurate way of accounting &#8211; the city is earning interest on the money it loaned to BT, which means that unless the city were to just walk away from the network (and extremely unlikely prospect), the taxpayers will be getting a return on that money in the pool greater than if it were just sitting unused in the pool.  So the idea that this money has come from the taxpayers is somewhat off &#8211; especially as this pool sees net income from Burlington electric and presumably other city-run enterprises.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7206</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7206</guid>
		<description>I am in almost total agreement with you - especially the need for communities to be ready for the inevitable and predictable attacks.  That said, different markets have different economics for the backhaul and I don&#039;t know that every community can offer the low low prices for fast fast connections that Lafayette can.  But I do think BT has to really amp up its marketing - especially noting that they are serving an important niche for small businesses.

I would also note that while 8M Symmetric is the fastest advertised rate, faster speeds are available for those who need them.  But yeah, pricier than you might find in Lafayette.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in almost total agreement with you &#8211; especially the need for communities to be ready for the inevitable and predictable attacks.  That said, different markets have different economics for the backhaul and I don&#8217;t know that every community can offer the low low prices for fast fast connections that Lafayette can.  But I do think BT has to really amp up its marketing &#8211; especially noting that they are serving an important niche for small businesses.</p>
<p>I would also note that while 8M Symmetric is the fastest advertised rate, faster speeds are available for those who need them.  But yeah, pricier than you might find in Lafayette.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan M</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7185</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7185</guid>
		<description>The technical merits of BT vs. Comcast get hashed about online, but in general those BT subscribers I know are happy with their service, just like most Comcast users I speak with. In those areas served by both, most residents have made their choice by now.

BT made an early presumption that in a liberal college town a publicly owned network would have lots of intrinsic appeal. For many, it does . . . but these folks, the ones Christopher Mitchell hears,  were hooked up awhile ago, and in numbers that fell well short of BT&#039;s original hopes. Support for BT drops off steeply outside of the &quot;true believer&quot; camp, and the mood among those not connected to BT--digitally or literally, is seething. Remember that more than $10,000 has been expended to connect each BT subscriber, and $3500 of that has come--legitimately or not--from lots of Comcast subscribers and those who don&#039;t want, or cannot afford, to connect. The mantra-response of the mayor-- that Burlington Telecom is a &quot;gem&quot;-- is technically correct, but betrays an unbelievable political disconnect from the mood among most taxpayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The technical merits of BT vs. Comcast get hashed about online, but in general those BT subscribers I know are happy with their service, just like most Comcast users I speak with. In those areas served by both, most residents have made their choice by now.</p>
<p>BT made an early presumption that in a liberal college town a publicly owned network would have lots of intrinsic appeal. For many, it does . . . but these folks, the ones Christopher Mitchell hears,  were hooked up awhile ago, and in numbers that fell well short of BT&#8217;s original hopes. Support for BT drops off steeply outside of the &#8220;true believer&#8221; camp, and the mood among those not connected to BT&#8211;digitally or literally, is seething. Remember that more than $10,000 has been expended to connect each BT subscriber, and $3500 of that has come&#8211;legitimately or not&#8211;from lots of Comcast subscribers and those who don&#8217;t want, or cannot afford, to connect. The mantra-response of the mayor&#8211; that Burlington Telecom is a &#8220;gem&#8221;&#8211; is technically correct, but betrays an unbelievable political disconnect from the mood among most taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Dampier</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7175</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Dampier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7175</guid>
		<description>I have a hard time finding out what the *real* speeds are (are the ones advertised on Comcast post-PowerBoost gimmick or pre, for example).  DOCSIS 3 is coming to Burlington like most other Comcast cities, which will change the dynamics as well.

I would think the engineering study issue could be reviewed as part of an overall independent review of the system.  I think municipalities need to better organize to listen and understand the challenges they are going to face, particularly from incumbent providers, and be ready and prepared to counter the propaganda.

Right now, it&#039;s every person for themselves on the city council, and it&#039;s shameful to watch.

It&#039;s my feeling that if you give the opinion leaders in broadband what they want, which is usually fast, reliable, and affordable speed, they will be your biggest evangelists, and will counter the &quot;muni broadband is socialism&quot; crowd quite effectively.

In some interviews I&#039;ve given, I&#039;ve also clued in the media to be on the lookout when using astroturfers for soundbites.  A lot of media people don&#039;t understand the issue of fake consumer groups.

In the end, I think Burlington Telecom is on the right track, but it needs to revise its marketing, and even if Comcast is overselling, BT should be able to ramp up speeds (see Lafayette, Louisiana for an example of a success story.) 

They need to capture a bigger percentage of the market to counter the inevitable talking point that you will hear soon enough from BT opponents and political opponents of the city administration that the whole thing is a boondoggle with too few customers, at which point Comcast will offer to cut a check to buy it and get rid of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a hard time finding out what the *real* speeds are (are the ones advertised on Comcast post-PowerBoost gimmick or pre, for example).  DOCSIS 3 is coming to Burlington like most other Comcast cities, which will change the dynamics as well.</p>
<p>I would think the engineering study issue could be reviewed as part of an overall independent review of the system.  I think municipalities need to better organize to listen and understand the challenges they are going to face, particularly from incumbent providers, and be ready and prepared to counter the propaganda.</p>
<p>Right now, it&#8217;s every person for themselves on the city council, and it&#8217;s shameful to watch.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s my feeling that if you give the opinion leaders in broadband what they want, which is usually fast, reliable, and affordable speed, they will be your biggest evangelists, and will counter the &#8220;muni broadband is socialism&#8221; crowd quite effectively.</p>
<p>In some interviews I&#8217;ve given, I&#8217;ve also clued in the media to be on the lookout when using astroturfers for soundbites.  A lot of media people don&#8217;t understand the issue of fake consumer groups.</p>
<p>In the end, I think Burlington Telecom is on the right track, but it needs to revise its marketing, and even if Comcast is overselling, BT should be able to ramp up speeds (see Lafayette, Louisiana for an example of a success story.) </p>
<p>They need to capture a bigger percentage of the market to counter the inevitable talking point that you will hear soon enough from BT opponents and political opponents of the city administration that the whole thing is a boondoggle with too few customers, at which point Comcast will offer to cut a check to buy it and get rid of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7173</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7173</guid>
		<description>Nice writeup.  I&#039;ve been following Burlington very closely since writing the original case study on it in 2007.  I think the crap about not doing the full-on cost assessment is false and an attempt at shifting blame to the founder who left in 2007.  Figuring out financing needs is tricky as it depends not just on the final costs, but expected take rate and ave revenue per user - projected years in advance.  Having the numbers off isn&#039;t much of a surprise. 

That said, communities must do the best they can to understand the costs when they go in, and when those costs change, they have to be open and transparent about it even though it gives strategic info to competitors.  

I&#039;m working on a longer report about how this occurred and what lessons muni networks can take.  

I take issue with your characterization of suggesting the Comcast speeds (DOCSIS 1 or 2, I believe) are better than the BT speeds.  BT actually provides what they advertise whereas Comcast gives an empty &quot;up to&quot; promise.  In this market, my impression is that Comcast is more congested than in most.

Finally, the matter of getting the final cost estimates misses the real difficulty - how soon they have to finishing building to the 7.5% of town that is on the granite ledge.  This is in negotiation at the Public Service Board.  Until they have the date, they cannot know how much to refinance because the closer the date, the more they need to borrow (a date further away allows them to pay cash from incoming revenues on more of the build).  Another 7.5% is a pain because Comcast claims they have exclusive on the MDUs and condos are another problematic area where they must negotiate with the landowners.  

None of this is easy, but when you watch people testifying on it, BT has enormous public support - it the Mayor that is unpopular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice writeup.  I&#8217;ve been following Burlington very closely since writing the original case study on it in 2007.  I think the crap about not doing the full-on cost assessment is false and an attempt at shifting blame to the founder who left in 2007.  Figuring out financing needs is tricky as it depends not just on the final costs, but expected take rate and ave revenue per user &#8211; projected years in advance.  Having the numbers off isn&#8217;t much of a surprise. </p>
<p>That said, communities must do the best they can to understand the costs when they go in, and when those costs change, they have to be open and transparent about it even though it gives strategic info to competitors.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m working on a longer report about how this occurred and what lessons muni networks can take.  </p>
<p>I take issue with your characterization of suggesting the Comcast speeds (DOCSIS 1 or 2, I believe) are better than the BT speeds.  BT actually provides what they advertise whereas Comcast gives an empty &#8220;up to&#8221; promise.  In this market, my impression is that Comcast is more congested than in most.</p>
<p>Finally, the matter of getting the final cost estimates misses the real difficulty &#8211; how soon they have to finishing building to the 7.5% of town that is on the granite ledge.  This is in negotiation at the Public Service Board.  Until they have the date, they cannot know how much to refinance because the closer the date, the more they need to borrow (a date further away allows them to pay cash from incoming revenues on more of the build).  Another 7.5% is a pain because Comcast claims they have exclusive on the MDUs and condos are another problematic area where they must negotiate with the landowners.  </p>
<p>None of this is easy, but when you watch people testifying on it, BT has enormous public support &#8211; it the Mayor that is unpopular.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Dampier</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7158</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Dampier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7158</guid>
		<description>Speeds and pricing garnered from Comcast website, zip code 05401.  Pricing assumes a product bundle, as does the price for BT&#039;s service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speeds and pricing garnered from Comcast website, zip code 05401.  Pricing assumes a product bundle, as does the price for BT&#8217;s service.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian L</title>
		<link>http://stopthecap.com/2009/10/27/telecomgate-city-up-in-arms-over-loan-controversy-with-municipally-owned-burlington-telecom/#comment-7156</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stopthecap.com/?p=5544#comment-7156</guid>
		<description>Is Comcast online with DOCSIS 3 in Burlington, VT? If not, you&#039;re comparing apples to oranges. Comcats non-TV internet rates (which are a valid comparison vs. BT&#039;s fiber rates) are $55 for 6/1 or $65 for 8/2. Plus $3-$5+ tax for modem rental. PowerBoost doesn&#039;t count.

Also, while I&#039;m in the minority, I&#039;d take an 8 Mbps symmetric connection any day over my 22/5 asymmetric one at the same price...upload speeds matter to me.

That said, in both cases Comcast&#039;s marketing machine has you convinced that they have BT beat out of the gate. Which is incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Comcast online with DOCSIS 3 in Burlington, VT? If not, you&#8217;re comparing apples to oranges. Comcats non-TV internet rates (which are a valid comparison vs. BT&#8217;s fiber rates) are $55 for 6/1 or $65 for 8/2. Plus $3-$5+ tax for modem rental. PowerBoost doesn&#8217;t count.</p>
<p>Also, while I&#8217;m in the minority, I&#8217;d take an 8 Mbps symmetric connection any day over my 22/5 asymmetric one at the same price&#8230;upload speeds matter to me.</p>
<p>That said, in both cases Comcast&#8217;s marketing machine has you convinced that they have BT beat out of the gate. Which is incorrect.</p>
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